Bradley MAC Deep DiveDate: September 29, 2017
Our agenda for today – I just wanted to cover this briefly – is we’re going to do a welcome and introductions where I will go ahead and turn it over to our speaker for tonight. We’ll walk through the definition of school counseling, what you’ll learn in the Professional School Counseling Program, Bob Lee’s Program Curriculum, what kind of Bachelors degree you need to pursue a Master of Arts in Counseling with Bradley, and then some – we’re going to go into some industry deep dive here, the first being the achievement gap as The Every Child Succeeds Act, bullying, and then we’ll have that Q&A session that I mentioned earlio – earlier. So right now I’m gonna go ahead and turn it over to our speaker this evening, Dr. Carla – excuse me, Dr. Robert Davison Aviles-Beto. I am gonna turn it over to you now to go ahead an introduce yourself.
Dr. Beto: Thanks, Sarah. Hi everyone. This is Beto and welcome to our webinar. Uh, we’ve got a lot of exciting things to talk about or to read about, I suppose. Uh, I’m one of your presenters. I am Latino. I’m bilingual. I was born in Nogales, Arizona to Mexican immigrant parents. Now, I specialize in multicultural and diversity issues in counseling. I am the course school counseling, including higher education, and I also know quite a bit about minority career development. Now my interests also include Education Abroad and International Studies and I got some experience – I’ve got experience in public school counseling, counseling in university settings, agency and private practice counseling. Now, as far as my teaching goes, uh, I teach Professional School Counseling courses, uh, in areas K to 8 and secondary schools. I also teach career counseling, consultation and counseling and practicum and internship courses. Um, I also enjoy teaching an undergraduate course, Human Relations Development, uh, for those of you that are, uh, familiar with motivational interviewing, uh, it’s a large part of what we do there, uh, and I also teach a course for undergraduate global scholars.
Okay, um – I beg your pardon – I’ve lost my slide. I’m so sorry. Stay there. Thank you for your patience, my goodness. Well, School Counseling. Um, you have a definition of it there. Um, and I’d like to add a little bit to that. So I like to think of school counseling as a little like the Peace Corps. It’s the toughest job you’re ever gonna love. School counselors are in a position to help students learn and achieve through counseling – uh, uh, academic program planning, career and post-high school counseling and also through some indirect counseling activities such as advocating for students, uh, consulting with parents and teachers. Now, we support students’ academics, career and social emotional development. That’s a lot. And we do all of these things through a school wide program that focuses on outcomes and improved results, and by gathering and analyzing data to support student achievement. So in the past some would ask: “Well, what do school counselors do?” The new question is: “How are students different because of what school counselors do?”
So what are you gonna learn about? Um, wow, you would learn about advocacy, leadership, collaboration and systemic change. Uh, you’ll also develop skills in some of the nuts and bolts of professional school counseling – these you might be more familiar with – such as individual and small group counseling, classroom guidance, career counseling and, of course, assessment and consultation. You’ll learn how to manage and assess a school counseling program. You’ll learn about human diversity in its many forms and about social justice and the importance of equity and access to the best education your school can provide for all children and the families and communities.
Now, this is a frequent question: “Um, what kind of Bachelors degree do I need?” And some folks think: “Well, it’s got to be Education or maybe it has to be Psychology.” Well, those, those are good and yeah, those will work but, uh, you enter our program with a Bachelors degree from an accredited institution, of course, uh, of higher education in nearly every area. We have graduated counseling students whose Bachelors degrees were in Engineering, Art, Music, Sociology and Psychology and, of course, Education. We’ve had Masters candidates who retired from one career and began a second career with us. Over the years our Masters candidates have ranged in age from 27 to gosh, 70.
Now, okay, so you heard a little earlier about the achievement gap. Uh, this is pretty important. Uh, prominent counselor educator and former school counseling, Cheryl Holcomb-McCoy, in her book School Counseling to Close the Achievement Gap, a Social Justice framework, tells us – well, she says the achievement gap refers to the observed and persistent extr – excuse me, extreme disparity in educational achievement and attainment between low income students and students of color and their higher income white and Asian peers. So we know that while poverty is often seen as a primary cause of this gap in educational achievement, it’s more likely that there’s a combined effect between race and poverty. For example the American School Counseling Association cites a 2013 National Assessment of Educational Progress Report showing that reading scores for 8th grade black children from the middle class households are the same as those for their poorer white peers. And we also know that the achievement gap translates to eventional – eventual lower educational attainment which in turn translates into lower economic attainment and security. So this is why Professional School Counseling is so important. School counselors are experts in helping students learn, achieve and grow. We use data to identify disparities in our schools and design interventions to overcome gaps in achievement.
Well, the every student succeeds that, uh, well, as some of you may know, the Every Student Succeeds replaced the previous No Child Left Behind law, and it includes – so, there’s some differences but it includes these major areas, so called standards. School counselors, live interventions with standards. Now I’m going to connect each of these with what school counselors do, as you can see on the slide. Assessments or testing. School counselors help prepare students and their families for standardized testing. Uh, accountability. Professional school counselors use data to demonstrate accountability. School improvement. School counselors are an integral part of the school improvement team in their building. Well rounded education. The school counselor’s role here is to support academic, career and personal social development. In terms of professional development, school counselors participate in school-wide professional development with teachers and administrators. Oh, so important, parental engagement. School counselors are an essential part of communication between school and families.
And this one should probably come as no surprise to you – we see it in the news, regrettably, so often – so bullying is a significant concern in schools. And it occurs as a result of a power imbalance between individuals accompanied by aggressive behavior and a likelihood that if nothing is done, bullying behaviors will persist. What about school counselors? Well, the school counselor’s role includes administrative support and collaborate with administrators on training about bullying. Positive behavior interventions and supports, PDIF. School counselors use anti-bullying curricula such as Second Step, uh, in their guidance programs. And you may want to Google that after this webinar, Second Step, just what it sounds like, anti-bullying programs. I think you’ll be very interested. Data analysis. Counselors are trained to use data to identify points of intervention. So we go get professional development. School counselors work with teachers to develop anti-bullying training for their schools. Student awareness. School counselors promote a school-wide culture that fosters a common understanding of bullying and effective ways for prevention and intervention. And social skills training. School counselors teach students ways to manage their anger. And next you’ll meet your enrollment advisor.
Sarah: Thank you so much. We’re going to go ahead and pass this over to Davina Roma-Traveno. She is one of the enrollment advisors for the online Master of Arts in Counseling Program. Davina, do you want to take it away?
Davina: Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Davina and, uh, I’m one of the enrollment advisors here with the online graduate program and I know that we have a couple of questions that did come in. If anybody wants to talk about that a little bit later, we can, but just don’t forget that you are able to ask your questions as we’re talking. I wanted to go over the curriculum a little bit and just know that there are two concentrations for this program, uh, but the Professional School Counseling, since we are speaking about that today – there are two tracks for this degree. One is catered to the licensed teacher and there are a total of 60 credits that – to be completed. And for the non-licensed teacher they’ll need to take one additional credit so a total of 61 credits to be obtained.
Our current tuition is at $850 per credit so you can see the math has been done there for you. Um, this is a three year program. It is a total of 9 semesters and it does require two one reek – one week residencies for the program. The first residency is done in the first semester, roughly somewhere between weeks 9 and 12 and the second residency is towards the end of your program in your 8th semester.
One of the admissions requirements for our program is that you are required to have a grade point average of 3.0 or higher on a 4.0 scale, uh, you can be conditionally admitted, you know, with something a little bit lower and, uh, we can talk about that on a personal basis. There is a non-refundable application fee of $40 and $50 for international students. You’ll be required to collect your official transcript. Two short essays are required, three letters of recommendation as well as a virtual interview.
Sarah: Thank you so much, Davina. So this kind of concludes what we wanted to discuss during the webinar and we’re gonna open it up at this point to questions and actually there was a question while you were speaking, Davina. So when you say three years, does that mean three years for a full time or can this program be done on a part time basis? If so, how long would that take?
Davina: Yes, in answer to your question, three years is at full time, uh, you do have an option for a part time basis and I believe it’s five years, uh, I’ll have to double check on that. But you may want to also consider how you’re going to invest in your degree because if you go on a part time basis and are utilizing financial aid, you know, that may affect it so you may want to check with financial aid first.
Sarah: Alright, thank you so much, Davina. So now we’re gonna ahead and like I said jump into any questions that all of you have tonight on the line so please don’t be shy and go ahead and, uh, ask anything you like of both Dr. Aviles or Davina so our first question that we wanted to throw out there is, you know, I – this individual works in an international school in Argentina and would like to know if there is a possibility to complete internships and Practicums there. They’ve noticed in other schools they were required to complete any Practicum or internship on U.S. soil. So, Beto, I’m going to throw that one over to you if you could answer that for us.
Beto: Sure. Uh, and the good news is, yes, of course you can. Uh, one of the things that, that I think makes Bradley unique – one of the many things that you probably already know about, but we’ve got significant international experience on the part of, uh, nearly all of the faculty here. Uh, in point of fact, I was just in Buenos Aires, oh my goodness – how is that long? Maybe two years ago. By the way, I loved it. If you have a chance you really ought to go. It’s an incredible, incredible city. In any event, yes, if you have an international school, you can do your Practicum and internship, uh – we once had a student who was in international school in Beijing and we did just fine. The requirements would, of course, be the same. You have to have a supervisor. That person must be a licensed school counselor and have at least two years experience. Uh, we can work with you on – if necessary, uh, on an alternative profession that is school-based, like a school social worker or a school psychologist but we prefer a school counselor.
Sarah: Thank you so much for responding to that. That’s great to hear. Uh, our next question. This is a frequently asked question I know across the board so this individual is a school teacher and mentions that it’s frowned upon to take time off during the school year and it’s difficult to afford to take time off. So how does, or will this affect the residency or internships and Practicum experience?
Beto: Is that one for me also?
Sarah: Yes, I’m gonna throw that one to you, too.
Beto: Okay. Thank you very much for that. Um, well, first off, uh, I think my answer will be a little bit more credible if I give you a bit of personal information. I have been married to the best kindergarten teacher on the planet for over 30 years and I myself was a public school counselor and educator for a number of years. Uh, I’m also on a school board so I get it. Uh, what we try to do is work with you, um, and we advise our students, um – and yes, you are correct. For a school teacher to take time off in the middle of a semester, uh, while, yeah, that’s, that’s challenging to say the least. What we would ask is that when you begin the program that – and frankly I tell our students, uh, because of course we have both programs on the ground and we have programs online – I tell everyone, start talking to your principal right now. Talk to your principal, uh, if there’s somebody else that you can talk to who’s admin – on the administrative end, uh, give ‘em a heads up. My experience in the past has been that with enough lead time folks will work with you and, look, you know, they’re getting two for one here. You’re going to be well trained, you’re going to be a school – you know, have a school counselor Masters degree, um, you’re coming from a top notch program here at Bradley, uh, on their end, what’s not to love? Uh, but if you start early enough, uh, these things can be overcome. Now, in terms of, of the, the field experience itself or the residency itself, uh, ah, we offer several of them. I think we’ve got three a year going and, uh, we’ve had what – you know, John Lennon once said “Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans.” We’ve had on a couple of occasions students who for one reason or another, uh, could not make one residency so they had to bump to another. What that does is it ends up extending your stay. We do have a residency in the summer, uh, I don’t know how that would fit in for your particular plans, uh, that is the student who asked this question. Uh, uh, but it might reduce that exposure for you, uh, if you were to have a summer off and were able to do that. Uh, but it’s – I can’t say that you will not have a residency that will, you know, happens during the spring, uh, or that happens during fall and when you are in school so that’s why advance planning is really, really important. We’ll work the best we can with you, though.
Sarah: Thank you. I think that’s great to know and I think its important for everyone to recognize that this does take some, you know, planning ahead time and to make sure to reach out to your employer just like you would for, you know, any sort of leave like this. You know, on top of that question, but I think someone just asked: Is it reasonable time-wise to be able to do the program full time while working full time? I think this kind of goes hand in hand and, you know, you and Divi and I can probably respond a little bit to this but what are your thoughts on those that are working full time and how much time they’ll need to dedicate to the program?
Beto: Davina, why don’t you go ahead because I’ve been yakking and then I’ll follow in right behind you.
Davina: Certainly, no problem. Uh, it’s definitely doable. Um, I think, just as Sara had mentioned, you know, just like planning to take time off, you have to plan your schedule. Uh, the best thing about it is that it’s very asynchronous so that gives you, you know, the autonomy to still do everything you’re already doing in your normal busy from day to day, busy and probably even chaotic schedule but you find time to do certain things so it’s just about time management. I know for myself, uh, I work a lot (Laughter) and I don’t mind because I just finished my second Bachelors and, you know, working at least 50 hours a week plus, you know, kids, you name it, I have it just like everybody else but it’s just about time management. So it is doable.
Beto: Yea, those Bachelors. Wow! (Laughter)
Davina: I’m sorry. We’ll talk about it alright.
Beto: So yeah, let me jump in on that one. So, um, as Sara mentioned, it is asynchronous. You’ll be – so here’s the thing. Um, a typical course would have you starting at a certain time and then finishing up about 7 or 7 ½ weeks later, uh, and so what’s inside that – what’s inside those two boundaries. There’ll be discussion boards but you don’t have to show up – not everyone has a discussion board but that’s fairly common so that’s why I’m picking that. Uh, so yeah, so you have a discussion board and part of your learning will be to interact with your peers, uh, online in that class and so you might be given a topic and a reading or, you know, some questions that will, you know, ask you to think critically and so here’s the good news for you. Um, the other thing that we at Bradley are, are really good at, um, is we’ve got some great rubrics so part of time management is understanding what’s expected of you because if you don’t know what’s expected of you and if it’s unclear, um, you start spinning your wheels, uh, uh, and getting frustrated and that’s just understandably so. We’re really good at giving you a rubric to let you know what’s expected of you, what you need to carry out and then, in your own head, you can start planning. Uh, so, for example, the discussion groups, uh, you’ll be given something to respond to, you respond to it, and we’ll say, okay, your week, here’s the discussion question for this week and on day one you get the question. And then on day three we need – by day three you need to have responded. And then by day five you need to have responded to some of your peers’ responses. And so it’s really just one step after the other after the other and you certainly can respond before then but when you take a look at that course you’ll say: “Okay, here’s my week. I’ve got – I’ve got something that’s gonna be due 3 and 5. I can do that.” And so you start putting together, as Davina said, you start putting together an organizational plan and half of you guys must be pretty organized anyhow or something like this wouldn’t cross your radar. Uh, once you get one or two of these courses under your belt, you’d be surprised. They really are doable, uh, and, and you’ll – you’ll start clicking. They’re very doable.
Sarah: Thanks, both of you. I think it was nice to hear both of your responses to that. Our next question is, you know, how does school counseling and guidance counseling vary or are they the same? Beto, I’m going to throw that one to you, too.
Beto: (Laughter) I love that question. Uh, what are they? Alright, okay, so here’s the thing. And thank you so much, it shows insight. Thank you so much for asking. So here’s the thing. We are not guidance counselors. That, you know, guidance counselors were maybe what your parents had or your grandparents had. Okay? We are Professional School Counselors and when you achieve, uh, uh, this degree and then eventual licensure in your state, you hold your head up, you walk into a school building and you are a Professional School Counselor. Now let’s talk about guidance. Guidance is one of a subset of many things a school counselor does. Guidance would be something – guidance is typically curriculum based and so you would have curricula for say bullying, you have curricula for safe dating, uh, you might have if you’re a primary school or elementary school counselor, you would have guidance lessons, uh, for your primary and maybe middle grades where you go in and, you know, you would talk to kindergartners and they would all be developmentally based. So our milestone student would be engaged in – and this is typically K to 6, K to 5 – uh, you would be having classroom guidance lessons and there – in that case you would be more like a – in familial schools you’d be more like a special. You’d be kinda like the art, music and phys ed. You know, you’d come in, you’d do a classroom guidance lesson about certain things and, and, uh, and, you know, what guidance lessons would you do? Well, you know, you learn how to do that. You work with your teachers and administrators to see what your building needs.
You’ll have less of that classroom participation, i.e., guidance, uh, uh, in the middle and, and high school years although there will be some, probably a little bit more in the middle school years and developmentally you might imagine that would be appropriate. Guidance takes on a different form in terms of when you’re in a high school, you’re doing educational planning so you might be visiting home rooms, uh, uh, and depending on your high school, uh, uh, you might be visiting home rooms to begin the educational planning process. Uh, you’ll see more variation in guidance in the high school then you will anywhere else. Some high schools don’t have any type of classroom, uh, uh, participation by the school counselor, uh, the guidance would come by virtue of planning special times so that you might have a group career counseling and college planning sessions that would occur maybe over lunch or uh, during a designated time during the day that students could be released. Uh, and so, as I mentioned earlier, guidance is one of the many things that we do. Uh, and that’s why we’re – we don’t call ourselves guidance counselors anymore.
Sarah: Thank you. Uh, our next question again, what are alternative job positions available with a professional school counseling degree? And, you know, I think – sorry, but Beto this one’s for you, too. (Laughter)
Beto: Well,, I’m a college professor and I love hearing myself talk, come on. (Laughter) Okay so – and these are terrific questions. Uh, so Sara, are all the students asking these questions, are they all Vulcans? Is that what – they can read minds, is that the way it goes? (Laughter) Because incredibly they’re students. Okay, so here’s the thing. Uh, alternate career development, and I’m a career development guy so this is right up my alley. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, first, as you can imagine, uh, you can enter very closely related fields. So here’s the great thing about, again about Bradley. Now this isn’t particular for you Illinois residents but if you’re not, not to worry so much because we’re working out uh, uh, relationships, sure, uh, uh, communicating with other states and their requirements. We did our homework ahead of time and so we’re making sure that uh, we’re aligned, not just with Illinois but we’re having entering into partnerships and agreements with other states so that your school counseling in particular is portable and within each state requirements but Bradley is, uh, unique, I think, in that when you go through our professional school counseling program, guess what?
You also get clinical mental health chops. You get skills, uh, just like our clinical mental health – we have two tracks, as you know, just like our clinical mental health folk, so that when you leave, particularly in the state of Illinois, and you would have to look at your own state’s requirements to see whether this would happen for you and, if it doesn’t happen automatically, I’m guessing it’s gonna be darn close because most states base their licensure on CACREP standards which is our accrediting body, uh, and we follow those standards. So when you leave our program, guess – you get to be a school counselor – yea! But you also by entitlement, once you finished our program and taken the national counseling exam which all of our students pass – yes, they do – uh, in Illinois by the time that you become an LPC, a licensed professional counselor – two for one! What’s not to like about that? Uh, uh, I know. I’m not trying to sound like a salesman but man, I guess I’m sounding like a salesman.
The thing is, it gives you right off the bat that flexibility. Many of our students in school counseling leave, they get their LPC which is the first tier of licensure in Illinois, they do a couple of years of supervised experience, they take a second exam and, uh, become a licensed clinical professional counselor, hang out a shingle and by day they’re a school counselor and by night they’re in private practice. It happens all the time.
And, uh, what else can you do? A lot of our school counselors go on to community college and higher ed. Uh, and because of transition, and again, that sort of makes sense, doesn’t it? Uh, you go to become a school counselor say you do your prac and internship in a high school and the step between a high school and a community college or university is literally one year and so, uh, uh, some of our professional school counseling graduates come through the program – oh, it’s not unusual we could have some from the admissions office here at Bradley and they take our program, get their degree and they continue to work in admissions or other student personnel services in higher education. We’ve got somebody now that was running – not too long ago was running the career center, uh, at a local community college. So, uh, yeah, and, uh, uh, uh, nonprofit agencies, United Way agencies, uh, who are counseling agencies, uh – we’ve got a local agency called Children’s Home here that uh, does uh, no-fee or low-fee counseling for children and families. We have other counselors working with the area Agency on Aging, uh, as part of their professionals.
So, uh, and we help you, uh, in terms of your career development. It’s not just you get a Masters degree and so long, the door slams. No, there’s a career development aspect to what we do in terms of where you want to go, where you’re headed and how we can help you get there. So that’s a terrific question, yeah, thanks for asking that one.
Sarah: Thank you for that response. I think this one kind of feeds off the prior one and you answered it a little bit but I just want to make sure that it’s clear. So the question was: How much flexibility is there with this school counseling Masters and do you need further qualifications then this and the licensing to be able to do something like private practice? So can you just reiterate that response that you gave?
Beto: Oh, absolutely. And so, uh, again, in the state of Illinois, uh, you’re on an even playing field with somebody who has a Masters degree in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. We are a CACREP accredited program and that unlikely acronym is C A C R E P which stands for the Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs so that when you leave, uh, one of the final things that you do is that you’ll take a comprehensive exam, which you will pass, uh, and you will take the national counseling exam which is the NCE – uh, the two are similar but not the same. Those of you that are already starting to sweat thinking: “Aw, Jeez, I’m not a great test taker.” We get that, too, and we hand out a comps an NCE prep program that happens your last semester so that, uh, you get an intensive review for several weeks before you have to sit these exams. So in Illinois you take the NCE. That’s the first tier licensure. The LPC – bear with me on this sort of alphabet soup stuff. The national counseling exam you get your Masters degree, you pass that exam. Illinois that by entitlement you simply send your exam results into the state and they send you back a pretty little blue – no, they don’t do that anymore. Haha. They send you back a pretty blue little PDF which is a very blue piece of paper but they send you back a site where you can get your license and print it out. Uh, and then you accrue two years with supervised experience which, by the way, you can do in a school. You have – our LPC’s – they have their LPC’s, they work in the school full time for two years – it’s about two thousand hours supervised experience, uh and then they sit for the LCPC which is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, they sit for that exam which they pass because they are, after all, Bradley graduates, uh, and then you’re in private practice. You hang out your shingle, you can, uh, uh, engage in third party reimbursement insurance payments, you can join a practice, uh, and again that’s fairly common. That happens – now just to, as a reminder, the reverse does not happen. If you get your, your Clinical Mental Health Masters, uh, you would have to come back and get a post-Masters certificate in School Counseling in order to qualify for school counseling whereas with School Counseling, as I said, it’s two for one. Uh, so yeah, that’s it.
Sarah: Thank you so much. That was great. Uh, there – we’re kind of wrapping up here a little bit. I think we’re gonna ask just a few more questions so if there were any last items that anybody really wanted to have covered tonight, why you joined, if you really came on to get a specific question answered, this is a great opportunity to ask a faculty member directly their thoughts, so please don’t be shy. If there’s any other questions, because we’re gonna wrap up here soon. But the next question is, you know, will there be or ever be an option for post-Masters certificate programs at Bradley? Do you know, Beto?
Beto: Yes, um, with a qualifier and a question mark and kind of a scratching your head and stubbing your toe in the dirt, we (Laughter) I’m sorry, that’s my southwestern – you know, you grow up in the southwest, you know, kind of – you’re a Mexican cowboy, you get these little things that just stick in your head. Uh, yeah, we’re working to have our post-Master certificates in Clinical Mental Health and School Counseling, uh, online. It’s taken us some time, uh, because, uh, well, we’ve been preoccupied with getting our Masters degrees online. Uh, but in answer to the question, yes, the plans are in place. Uh, when? Wow! Uh, I think in 2018, 2019 – please don’t hold me to that. If 2018 rolls around, you know, please don’t send me 120 e-mails asking what’s going on? But, I don’t – everyone who I have talked to in our planning group here at Bradley, uh, as we look forward to this, we’re thinking a couple of years down the road. But we’ve had so many requests for this, so the person who asked this question, you’re not alone. There’s a ton of folk out there, uh, who are looking – and who are these folks? You know, these folks are, for example, in school counseling, these are folks who have been clinical mental health counselors, rehab counselors, maybe are school social workers. We’ve had a couple of those folks stop by our post-Masters certificate program that we have here on the ground, uh, and these are folks who are making a slight parallel change but they’ve got a counseling degree or very, very closely related clinical degree in another field and they want to be a school counselor. And so we see the need for it, there seems to be a growing demand for it online so I anticipate in the next couple of years we’re gonna be seeing that.
Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you for kind of giving us your idea of when that might occur. This question is for Davina. Do programs start in just the fall or can you also start in the summer or spring?
Davina: We actually have, uh, like a carousel, so it’s rotating and they’re ongoing but we do have three starts each year. So it is the summer, spring and fall. Our spring has already begun and our next start is this summer which begins April 24th and then we have the fall which begins in August on the 21st of August this yea.
Sarah: Wonderful. So, you know, you have quite a few chances here. If you are interested in applying shortly you’re gonna want to get in for the summer and do that as soon as possible. Otherwise I would like to conclude our webinar for tonight. I think we’ve answered everyone’s questions and I just wanted to thank both Davina and Dr. Aveiles for being with us tonight and really thoroughly answering all the questions. I know that, uh, everyone who attended really appreciated it so thank you so much, both of you, for being with us tonight.
Davina: Thank you.